Comments on: ‘Selfless’ and ‘Selfish’ are Both Myths

By: Brian Frank

Brian Frank — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 01:29:44 +0000

I think that's exactly what I addressed here.

When I was younger I had took the idea from Hobbes and Nietzsche that life is basically a power struggle and even apparently "selfless" acts are ways to become more influential [and/or promote oneself via one's group], etc.

I overcame that when I started thinking about motivation in terms of relevance rather than power, which required life's temporal aspect more, rather than looking at the world as being composed of distinct objects and statistical values.

The selfish/selfless duality kind of dissolved after that.

Now I recognize how affected we have been by biases that compel us to project objective patterns and polarities where they do not really exist.

By: Openworld

Openworld — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 23:17:03 +0000

Brian,

Just saw this thread – would be interested in your thoughts on the “unselfish” actions that may be prompted by “selfish” qualities of spirit, or lumines (akin to selfish genes and memes). It's about two thirds of the way down the comments page here -

http://harvardmagazine.com/2009/11/biographical...

Best,
Mark Frazier
@openworld @buildership @peerlearning

By: Brian Frank

Brian Frank — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 20:29:44 +0000

By: Openworld

Openworld — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 18:17:03 +0000

Brian,

http://harvardmagazine.com/2009/11/biographical...

Best,
Mark Frazier
@openworld @buildership @peerlearning

By: Make Institutions and Leaders More Fallible | Open/Conceptual Studio

Make Institutions and Leaders More Fallible | Open/Conceptual Studio — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 04:00:23 +0000

[...] ‘Selfless’ and ‘Selfish’ are Both Myths [...]

By: brianfrank

brianfrank — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:52:26 +0000

Another great point James. I'm thinking it's ok to attach moral value to both the selfish and the unselfish -- but that value should be assessed by nonzero-sum qualities (not just measured by quantities).

Knowledge, happiness, health, love... these can be sought "selfishly" in ways that don't make it more difficult, but in fact make it easier for other people to be knowledgeable, happy, healthy, loved, etc.

There's a word for it -- can't think of it now...

By: James Shelley

James Shelley — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:21:21 +0000

I am intrigued by the reality that most religious/philosophical systems in the world ultimately culminate themselves in the ethic of reciprocity (do to other people the same as you would want other people to do you). Fascinatingly, there is an “inherently” selfish dimension to this rule: our consideration of other is generally mediated through our own desires. I think acts of selfishness and selflessness are both genuine and real, but I agree that we should move away from considering either one of them to have some absolutist moral value attached to them.