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	<title>Comments on: AIG and the Need for Managed Self-Assertion</title>
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	<link>http://brianfrank.ca/2009/03/aig-and-the-need-for-managed-self-assertion/</link>
	<description>Brian Frank &#124; Open Conceptual Essays by a Creative Pragmatist</description>
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		<title>By: Hipsters and Signaling &#124; brianfrank.ca</title>
		<link>http://brianfrank.ca/2009/03/aig-and-the-need-for-managed-self-assertion/comment-page-1/#comment-3333</link>
		<dc:creator>Hipsters and Signaling &#124; brianfrank.ca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 03:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brianfrank.ca/?p=1483#comment-3333</guid>
		<description>[...] never bought into the notion of cultural rebellion. It&#8217;s more about self-assertion than anything &#8212; putting oneself into whatever vitalizing opportunities are available. It may [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] never bought into the notion of cultural rebellion. It&#8217;s more about self-assertion than anything &#8212; putting oneself into whatever vitalizing opportunities are available. It may [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Frank</title>
		<link>http://brianfrank.ca/2009/03/aig-and-the-need-for-managed-self-assertion/comment-page-1/#comment-1484</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 21:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brianfrank.ca/?p=1483#comment-1484</guid>
		<description>You make a very good point Francois, about people who suffer the most are in terrible positions to think clearly -- philosophy is definitely a kind of luxury. I&#039;m going to think about it a lot more...

As for my proposed alternatives... they&#039;re complex. Essentially I think we need to get away from the industrial, machine metaphors of both Marxism and institutional capitalism (or rather, we &lt;i&gt;will&lt;/i&gt; get away from those metaphors -- it&#039;s more a matter of how smoothly/disastrously). 

To do that I think we need better metaphors for &lt;a href=&quot;http://brianfrank.ca/2008/07/the-will-to-relevance-2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;psychology&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://brianfrank.ca/2008/03/the-new-pragmatist-2/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;philosophy&lt;/a&gt;... I&#039;m working on it.

I think the best solution in more practical terms is to make organizations better from the inside-out. Plenty of good, smart people work in big companies. We&#039;ll get better at managing (see my post on &lt;a href=&quot;http://brianfrank.ca/2008/11/cisco-and-the-internal-economics-of-organizations/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Cisco&lt;/a&gt;) and bringing out the best in people, rather than the worst.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make a very good point Francois, about people who suffer the most are in terrible positions to think clearly &#8212; philosophy is definitely a kind of luxury. I&#8217;m going to think about it a lot more&#8230;</p>
<p>As for my proposed alternatives&#8230; they&#8217;re complex. Essentially I think we need to get away from the industrial, machine metaphors of both Marxism and institutional capitalism (or rather, we <i>will</i> get away from those metaphors &#8212; it&#8217;s more a matter of how smoothly/disastrously). </p>
<p>To do that I think we need better metaphors for <a href="http://brianfrank.ca/2008/07/the-will-to-relevance-2" rel="nofollow">psychology</a> and <a href="http://brianfrank.ca/2008/03/the-new-pragmatist-2/" rel="nofollow">philosophy</a>&#8230; I&#8217;m working on it.</p>
<p>I think the best solution in more practical terms is to make organizations better from the inside-out. Plenty of good, smart people work in big companies. We&#8217;ll get better at managing (see my post on <a href="http://brianfrank.ca/2008/11/cisco-and-the-internal-economics-of-organizations/" rel="nofollow">Cisco</a>) and bringing out the best in people, rather than the worst.</p>
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		<title>By: Francois</title>
		<link>http://brianfrank.ca/2009/03/aig-and-the-need-for-managed-self-assertion/comment-page-1/#comment-1475</link>
		<dc:creator>Francois</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:18:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brianfrank.ca/?p=1483#comment-1475</guid>
		<description>I also agree that primal reaction is not necessarily always good and that a philosopher, or at least someone who claims to be rational, should shy away from violent and immediate reactions.
In fact this is the age old problem of whether social change can be achieved with or without violence.  Marx for instance believed that social change can only be achieved with force since those who have power are not going to relinquish it without a fight.
I&#039;ve been thinking about this also for a while and I must agree that while I certainly do not advocate or support social disruption, it seems difficult to imagine that those who already have the money and the power are going to willingly hand them over to others.
At the very least, I think that it is also extremely difficult for those suffering the most to rationalize the situation.  When you&#039;re hungry and cannot feed your children, clear thinking becomes problematic.
I will be curious and anxious to read what you will propose as alternatives...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also agree that primal reaction is not necessarily always good and that a philosopher, or at least someone who claims to be rational, should shy away from violent and immediate reactions.<br />
In fact this is the age old problem of whether social change can be achieved with or without violence.  Marx for instance believed that social change can only be achieved with force since those who have power are not going to relinquish it without a fight.<br />
I&#8217;ve been thinking about this also for a while and I must agree that while I certainly do not advocate or support social disruption, it seems difficult to imagine that those who already have the money and the power are going to willingly hand them over to others.<br />
At the very least, I think that it is also extremely difficult for those suffering the most to rationalize the situation.  When you&#8217;re hungry and cannot feed your children, clear thinking becomes problematic.<br />
I will be curious and anxious to read what you will propose as alternatives&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Frank</title>
		<link>http://brianfrank.ca/2009/03/aig-and-the-need-for-managed-self-assertion/comment-page-1/#comment-1424</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:05:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brianfrank.ca/?p=1483#comment-1424</guid>
		<description>EclectEcon: Thanks for the positive words. 

Francois: Like your comments about China you seem to be going where I want to go with a future post... (I think that&#039;s awesome -- thanks!) That&#039;s a good point that, big or small, those bonuses point to deeper and broader problems.

The case I&#039;ve been making in &lt;em&gt;all&lt;/em&gt; of my posts on the economic crisis is that there are underlying cultural practices and assumptions that need to change. I&#039;ve got a lot of problems with this society&#039;s attitudes about wealth and it has been disconcerting to see it spread around the globe. The disparities are both socially divisive and economically unsustainable -- a big step backwards.

But my worry about public outrage is that it isn&#039;t very conducive to practical, rational articulation of possible solutions. If we&#039;re going to claim moral high ground we should at least demonstrate we deserve it instead of degenerating to the same &quot;primal&quot; level.

Suggesting that the public has some kind of &quot;right&quot; to be outraged is, to me, equivalent to saying executives, traders, and athletes have a &quot;right&quot; to grab as much as they can (i.e. they could argue winner-take-all competition -- &quot;survival of the fittest&quot; -- is ok because it&#039;s a &quot;primal instinct&quot;... and some of them do argue that: pseudo-Darwinism helped destroy Enron). 

To paraphrase Chris Rock, &lt;a href=&quot;http://video.google.ca/videosearch?source=ig&amp;hl=en&amp;rlz=&amp;q=chris%20rock%20I%20understand&amp;lr=&amp;um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;sa=N&amp;tab=wv#q=chris+rock+OJ+simpson+I+understand&amp;hl=en&amp;emb=0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I understand&lt;/a&gt;  -- but there&#039;s no way I&#039;ll condone or enable it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EclectEcon: Thanks for the positive words. </p>
<p>Francois: Like your comments about China you seem to be going where I want to go with a future post&#8230; (I think that&#8217;s awesome &#8212; thanks!) That&#8217;s a good point that, big or small, those bonuses point to deeper and broader problems.</p>
<p>The case I&#8217;ve been making in <em>all</em> of my posts on the economic crisis is that there are underlying cultural practices and assumptions that need to change. I&#8217;ve got a lot of problems with this society&#8217;s attitudes about wealth and it has been disconcerting to see it spread around the globe. The disparities are both socially divisive and economically unsustainable &#8212; a big step backwards.</p>
<p>But my worry about public outrage is that it isn&#8217;t very conducive to practical, rational articulation of possible solutions. If we&#8217;re going to claim moral high ground we should at least demonstrate we deserve it instead of degenerating to the same &#8220;primal&#8221; level.</p>
<p>Suggesting that the public has some kind of &#8220;right&#8221; to be outraged is, to me, equivalent to saying executives, traders, and athletes have a &#8220;right&#8221; to grab as much as they can (i.e. they could argue winner-take-all competition &#8212; &#8220;survival of the fittest&#8221; &#8212; is ok because it&#8217;s a &#8220;primal instinct&#8221;&#8230; and some of them do argue that: pseudo-Darwinism helped destroy Enron). </p>
<p>To paraphrase Chris Rock, <a href="http://video.google.ca/videosearch?source=ig&amp;hl=en&amp;rlz=&amp;q=chris%20rock%20I%20understand&amp;lr=&amp;um=1&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;sa=N&amp;tab=wv#q=chris+rock+OJ+simpson+I+understand&amp;hl=en&amp;emb=0" rel="nofollow">I understand</a>  &#8212; but there&#8217;s no way I&#8217;ll condone or enable it.</p>
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		<title>By: Francois</title>
		<link>http://brianfrank.ca/2009/03/aig-and-the-need-for-managed-self-assertion/comment-page-1/#comment-1412</link>
		<dc:creator>Francois</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Mar 2009 19:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brianfrank.ca/?p=1483#comment-1412</guid>
		<description>In your analysis on the AIG bonus problem you focus on the social aspect of the public wanting vengeance and a feeling that they can regain control of Wall Street.  You also mention the fact that the bonus money is a negligible part of the total granted to the company.

I don&#039;t think that the fact the it is relatively a small portion of the total is very relevant here.  The problem seems to me to be more the disproportion between the money a few (apparently incompetent) executives are making with comparison to the average worker.  Personally I put these bonuses in the same category as the incredibly high retributions star basketball and baseball players are getting.  But at least these stars are playing well and we can all see it, which is not the case for the executives of those big companies that apparently are at least partially responsible for the meltdown in the first place.

Maybe vengeance is a factor, but can it be really discarded as primal instinctual reaction when we see on the one hand the disproportion between their earnings and ours and their apparent incompetence on the other?

Remember Marie Antoinette saying about the people: &quot;If they have no bread, let them eat cake&quot;?

When you consider Nortel&#039;s decision to give a bonus to a certain number of executives (I forgot exactly how many) when their laid off workers have not been paid yet, you have a feeling they are saying &quot;if they have no bread, let them starve&quot;.

Personally I don&#039;t think it&#039;s so much a question of trying to regain control as just trying to even the odds for all of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In your analysis on the AIG bonus problem you focus on the social aspect of the public wanting vengeance and a feeling that they can regain control of Wall Street.  You also mention the fact that the bonus money is a negligible part of the total granted to the company.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that the fact the it is relatively a small portion of the total is very relevant here.  The problem seems to me to be more the disproportion between the money a few (apparently incompetent) executives are making with comparison to the average worker.  Personally I put these bonuses in the same category as the incredibly high retributions star basketball and baseball players are getting.  But at least these stars are playing well and we can all see it, which is not the case for the executives of those big companies that apparently are at least partially responsible for the meltdown in the first place.</p>
<p>Maybe vengeance is a factor, but can it be really discarded as primal instinctual reaction when we see on the one hand the disproportion between their earnings and ours and their apparent incompetence on the other?</p>
<p>Remember Marie Antoinette saying about the people: &#8220;If they have no bread, let them eat cake&#8221;?</p>
<p>When you consider Nortel&#8217;s decision to give a bonus to a certain number of executives (I forgot exactly how many) when their laid off workers have not been paid yet, you have a feeling they are saying &#8220;if they have no bread, let them starve&#8221;.</p>
<p>Personally I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s so much a question of trying to regain control as just trying to even the odds for all of us.</p>
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		<title>By: EclectEcon</title>
		<link>http://brianfrank.ca/2009/03/aig-and-the-need-for-managed-self-assertion/comment-page-1/#comment-1208</link>
		<dc:creator>EclectEcon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:35:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brianfrank.ca/?p=1483#comment-1208</guid>
		<description>informative, thoughtful piece.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>informative, thoughtful piece.</p>
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